Angry Letter: Leave UVSC alone!
When I wrote for a paper in Utah whose name escapes me now, one of my favorite things to make fun of was Utah Valley State College, the goofy little cousin to Provo’s more prestigious and selective Brigham Young University. I don’t know which of my UVSC columns a reader named Megan stumbled upon — it could have been this one, this one, this one, or this one (I think it was the second one) — but whichever it was, it roused her enough to send this e-mail:
Honestly I don’t see what you have against UVSC, it’s a really good school and it’s a heck of a lot cheaper than BYU. It must all come down to you being jealous. [She's a graduate of UVSC's fine Logic & Reasoning Department, apparently.] You were probably the one that go shot down to even enter into UVSC, so then you had to go to BYU, Big whoop. [This is like saying, "You couldn't get a job at McDonald's, so you had to take a job as a brain surgeon instead."] You’re an egotistical, presumptuous, and uncultivated man. (I forgive you if your uneducated mind had to look up all of those words but IÂ’ll sum it up for you. I just called you a really big jerk.) Yes, you won you offended me but I can still give you my input (it seems like you’re wanting it or you wouldn’t have written this article). UVSC is a great school and so many talented students have achieved great knowledge there. Though you hear on the TV about BYU and how students are being raped and robbing bars (yes, check the news sometime.) [Thank goodness no UVSC student has ever committed a crime! That would render her argument useless!] But you have no reason to trash UVSC. It’s not like it’s the best college, but neither is BYU. In the real world it doesn’t matter what college you go to just as long as you have a degree in something you’ll get hired for the job. So shut up and grow up. You may be old but you’re really immature and sophomoric.
I’ll be waiting for your reply.
Since she requested a reply, I gave her one. I didn’t say much, but I ended with this:
Thanks for writing. I do hope you enjoy your stay at UVSC, and that you work hard and earn your diploma. Well, not a diploma, of course; what they actually give you is a Chili’s gift certificate and a balloon. But still! Work hard!
Alas, that joke is recycled from one of the above-mentioned columns, but what can you do?
December 18th, 2007 at 1:02 am
Aw. Poor young woman with all those tender, tender feelings, ripe for the stepping on. It’s too bad all she’ll have to shield her fragile ego from the cruelties of the world is a Chili’s gift certificate.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:19 am
You know when I went to BYU, I was really enjoying the spiritual atmosphere, the stringent education, and the challenging curriculum that would give me such pride and joy upon graduation. But secretly I longed, no, PINED, that possibly I could transfer, even be nominally considered for residency at UTAH VALLEY COMMUNITY (STATE) COLLEGE!! Oh, the agonizing I went through! Would they select me? Would my credentials be sufficient to garner entrance? Could I actually smell the the baby back ribs and southwestern egg rolls I knew I would purchase on graduation day? Sadly, I took my diploma from BYU and wondered what could have been…
December 18th, 2007 at 5:05 am
The worst part about UVSC becoming Utah Valley University will be that the “UVSC” song (sung to “Under the Sea” from Little Mermaid) will no longer work.
Anybody get the feeling she spent an hour trying to compose that email and pore over it until it sounded smart to her? Are “egotistical”, “presumptuous”, and “uncultivated” actually difficult words for her? I kind of suspect she actually counted the syllables to make sure they were big words.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:04 am
There is something about the way she used “uncultivated” that just seems wrong.
She must have majored in Dictionary Looking-Up.
This letter makes those columns even funnier. When I was at BYU we didn’t rape or rob bars,,,small potatoes.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:05 am
Phil Cardenas has caused my mouth to water with his mention of southwestern egg rolls.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:09 am
I’ve learned that there are morons everywhere you go. I was speaking to a client the other day who displayed just how poor of an education he had. He excused it by saying “It’s my first day at this job. I just graduated from BYU.” It gave everyone at my office a laugh but ultimately there are students like that everywhere. I am proud to go to UVSC (UVU) but as this student demonstrated there are morons there too. I do say that I quite enjoy the UVSC columns as well and no one that I have played the UVSC song for has been offended…most have just asked for a copy of it.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Im’a go rape some bars right now! ……Snikers bars….mmmmm…..
December 18th, 2007 at 9:00 am
Actually, if you look closely, the “crime” she mentions is *being* raped, not raping, which is a pretty alarming sentiment, in my opinion. No matter where you went to school.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:07 am
U-Va-Suck? I remember being told I was not welcome on their campus. Something about calling their volleyball players heifers and hos (but not nappy headed - that would be racist) seemed to rub them wrong. So much for tolerance.
Now, if someone could explain to me how it is possible to get a job with any degree, regardless of school I’d love to know. So would my JD holding unemployed behind.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:19 am
I agree with the original letter writer that Eric needs much more cultivating. Those crops aren’t going to grow by themselves.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Tuition and fees at UVSC: $1,764
Tuition and fees at BYU: $1,920
I’m not really sure that qualifies as “a heck of a lot cheaper.” Also, a UVSC student once told me that UVSC was better than BYU because it had a better graduate program. I think that says it all, really.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Neil,
How could you possibly have a JD and NOT have a job? What are you doing wrong? Are you wearing a brown suit to your interviews? Does your belt match your shoes? Did you graduate from one of those wanna be universities such as U of Phoenix or one of those caribbean islands? There has go to be SOMETHING holding you back.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:47 am
Maybe the letter writer isn’t LDS. The BYU tuition listed is only for church members while the UVSC tuition listed is for in state. I’ve also been told that class fees and such are much higher at BYU than UVSC. My cousin at BYU last year ended up paying $2700 before textbooks while I at UVSC paid $1900 before textbooks. To me $800 is fairly substantial.
Also,
For the past few years UVSC has offered a grad program on campus through Utah State University for business students. Maybe the UVSC student you spoke to was involved in that program.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:49 am
I’m calling Thesaurus on her use of “sophomoric”.
It’s actually a great word, but like the flesh of beasts, should be used sparingly. And it most definitely should not be used by people who use the word “uncultivated” like she did.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:05 am
You’re forgetting that there’s a higher tuition rate for non-LDS students at BYU, Jonathon. Non-LDS tuition is currently running at almost $4,000 per semester–which is still damned cheap for a private university. But, if you’re not LDS, I could see how UVSC would be “a heck of a lot cheaper than BYU” to some people.
Or, maybe the letter writer just sucks at math. That works too.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Doesn’t she realize that by writing something that incoherent, she is perpetuating Eric’s stereotypes of UVSC college students? Even though everything is spelled correctly in this letter, the sentence structure isn’t quite right and her argument is not well put together. I’m guessing she’s an English major at UVSC, with an emphasis in persuasive writing.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Michael -
If only it was my brown shoes with black suit and pink mohawk that were keeping me from employment. But, alas, I’m not the only one of my former classmates that can’t find a job. I suppose it comes from the glut of lawyers in the DC area.
There are two options that I haven’t taken advantage of yet. First, I could become a trial lawyer, working plaintiff cases. But, I would rather rob a grandmother’s fixed social security check - it would be more ethical. Second, I could move, but once you get licensed in one state (I am in MD), other states demand your first-born if you want to practice there. Can’t risk the kid on the off chance that I find a job.
Just think, I could have gone to UVSC. Then maybe Dominos would give me that interview I’ve been coveting.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:06 am
She’s right, of course, that “In the real world it doesn’t matter what college you go to just as long as you have a degree in something you’ll get hired for the job.”
That’s why it’s so easy to get into an Ivy League school these days.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Neil, now’s probably a dandy time to be a bankruptcy lawyer. Hook up with some real estate agents or loan officers who have clients losing their homes in the market collapse. Is that ethical, or is it vulture-y?
As a former computer science student at BYU, I have to acknowledge that UVSC’s program was better. You leave with practical knowledge from UVSC; BYU was teaching me plenty of theory, but companies don’t ask you THEORIZE how to build a system.
(Oh that they would! “I theorize that you’re going to hire a UVSC grad. Now where’s my check?”)
December 18th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I don’t think that the college that you attend is always an important factor in getting a job. You also have to look at what the student is studying and the education that they are getting in that field. I am currently studying Digital Media at UVSC and the opportunities are great. Instead of sitting behind a desk reading books and listening to lectures, students in the advanced film classes were filming and working on High School Musical and High School Musical 2 for the Disney Channel. The program is one of the best in the Western United States for Multimedia. Going to BYU and studying Digital Media wouldn’t give me any better chance at getting a job in the industry even though BYU is better recognized.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
The writer admits that the column’s intent was to offend UVSC students, unconvincingly tries to prove how UVSC is better than BYU, then awaits a reply? What was she expecting, exactly?
Before I even got to the bracketed comments, it was easy to remember that the columns that mock BYU far outnumber those that make fun of UVSC. Maybe you should send those links to her, Eric.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Jason L. Wright, that may be true for your program, but overall, the better reputation of the school, the better chances of getting a job. In the legal field, for example, there are some firms you have no chance of working for if you didn’t go to a top law school. I’m sure it’s not only the legal field. I would also bet that BYU students have an easier time getting into better graduate programs, because of BYU’s reputation.
December 18th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
I can’t believe that a satellite program of USU held at UVSC is better regarded than the graduate school business programs at BYU.
Also one of my buddies and his wife, both BYU grads in Digital Media/Computer Science now work at Pixar, the awesomest company around.
Go Cougs!
December 18th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
I think it is weird that this thread is mostly people talking about how awesome BYU is compared to UVSC. Face it: no college or university in Utah ranks all that high when looking at national ratings. While UVSC may have less prestige locally than BYU, surely this is to be expected; UVSC only became a full-fledged college fourteen years ago. In that time, it has made tremendous strides in improving its programs and departments. I think with its transition to a university, UVSC will probably become quite comparative in quality to BYU. Of course, there will always be stupid school rivalries (especially between universities located so close to one another) and I doubt that BYU students will stop feeling a swell of pride and how “selective and prestigious” their school is. Unless they actually leave Utah, and see that BYU is pretty average in the grand scheme of American universities.
December 18th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Thank you, Humphrey. I was wanting to say that.
Here in Arizona, we’ve got the glorious F. K. (Phoenix College). I’m sorry, but that joke will never stop being funny to me…
December 18th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Neil, man, you’re scaring me. My hubby is currently a 2L at one of our fine DC legal education institutions, and he wants to stay here indefinitely. He’s planning to take the bar in Virginia. Have you looked at government jobs? Or is there a glut of applicants for attorney positions there too?
December 18th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Man, these postings are perfect for a guy who graduated from BYU, then went to UVSC for another B.S., and is hoping to attend law school this fall…
Having experienced BYU and then UVSC, I will openly admit that UVSC feels a bit like high school. Almost all of the buildings are connected (so it’s really one big building) and (especially when you’re 26 or so) all the other students feel like teenagers. The exception is when you get into upper division classes. There, it feels like a real university. And some of the programs (education, nursing) are at least as good as they are at BYU.
I do believe UVSC has come a long ways the last couple of years. However, it isn’t (and it will never be) up to BYU’s level. They just don’t have the size of campus to compete.
As far as the volleyball players go…I went on a date with a real cute one. I can’t vouch for the others, but I had a serious crush on this one…
December 18th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
UVSC will never measure up to BYU in athletics but in academics (the real reason for college) I think that UVSC is already equal to BYU in a few areas and will continue to improve to the same and higher levels. The campus size at UVSC is physically smaller but the facilities are there. Instead of having lots of spaced out buildings they are all on top of each other at UVSC. This can be an advantage sometimes. After speaking to a friend who fell slipped on some ice, fell down some stairs, and broke her leg between classes at BYU, I was grateful that I could go from class to class anywhere on campus without going outside. As far as athletics go, UVSC could have the best basketball team in the nation and they wouldn’t have the fan support that BYU has and they will never even try to get a football team.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
This is just my personal feeling, but BYU will always be a better school because of a few reasons. First of all, they get to pick from a wider selection of students than UVSC does. They get the cream of the crop. Secondly, their students come from a wider range of areas - I’ve met people from Europe, from South America, from Asia, you name it. UVSC attracts mostly Utah residents, because it’s a state college. Thirdly, because of its prestige (mostly thanks to the first two reasons stated), a diploma from BYU will always carry more weight than a diploma from UVSC. It may be just average on a national scale, but people have heard of it. Outside the state of Utah, no one has even heard of UVSC. If you’re planning on staying in Utah your entire life (heaven forbid), a degree from UVSC may be helpful. But once you leave the state, you won’t have as many options as you would with a BYU degree. So there you have it. Better pick of students, a wider variety of culture and experience, and the prestige that comes with a university that people have heard of (outside of Utah valley). That is why BYU will always be the better school. Just my opinion. A person may go to college to get an education (which may be a good education at UVSC, I know people who got a great education there), but what happens afterwards with the rest of your life is the most important thing. A BYU degree will open more doors than one from UVSC would, and to me, that’s the bottom line.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
PS - Eric, I had a weird dream last night where you married my little sister. It was odd. Just wanted to share.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
In my experience (BS from BYU, grad school out of state), BYU undergraduate education is regarded as better than average by those who are familiar with the university. It depends on the department, but some are very well regarded nationally. The former editor of the American Economic Review (Orley Ashenfelter, at Princeton, if anyone cares), told me that he considers the BYU undergraduate econ program as one of the 10 best in the country.
Knowing this, I am still embarrassed when I hear someone call BYU “The Harvard of the West.” It’s decent, but let’s not go nuts.
My favorite UVSC joke: “Then they began hiring professors instead of hobos.”
December 18th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
I have never been so proud to be a UVSC alumni. Thank you, Megan, for so eloquently arguing on all of our behalves.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:40 am
Neil is right. I graduated law school in ‘03, finding a job is rough for lawyers. The jokes are true, there are too many of us. And law schools have increased enrollment considerably in the past 10 years. Treen, the problem with the gov’t atty jobs (usajobs.opm.gov) is that each job usually has over 25 applicants. A friend of mine, an atty for DOD, said that there were 75 applicants for his job. Your hubbys best course of action is get good grades, get a good internship b/n 2L and 3L summers and network.
December 19th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Chocolatestu,
From your comment it would appear that you really don’t know much about UVSC and are going of off what you’ve heard. BYU doesn’t always get the cream of the crop. In some instances they do but some people don’t go there because they don’t want to…or they aren’t LDS. Has it ever occurred to you that not every smart person in Utah Valley is LDS? I know it may be shocking but it’s true. I know that BYU has non-member students but not many from around Utah Valley. Many of those students choose to attend other schools to stay away from the church affiliation. The diversity at UVSC is also quite large. I am a member of two business organizations at UVSC. Last year we had 40 members with only 2 being from Utah. We had 4 students who were international and 34 from other states. I’ve had the opportunity to work with students from Kenya, Belgium, Taiwan, Japan, and Brazil in my classes. The education is good and it isn’t as easy as people think. A cousin of mine who was a 4.0 student in High School went to UVSC thinking it was going to be a cakewalk and that she would be able to transfer her easy credits to BYU. Now she’s walking away from her first semester having not earned any credits because all she was ever told growing up was that BYU was real college and UVSC was easier than High School. In some regards it is but I would never trade my education that I am getting.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Wow, a little tense? You kind of proved my point - almost all UVSC students are from Utah Valley. I realize that non-members have to pay more at BYU, and it goes without saying that non-Utah residents have to pay more at UVSC. So yes, most UVSC students (LDS or otherwise) are Utah residents, which (back to one of my original points) means not as much cultural difference among the students. I’m sure there are some, I myself know someone from Virginia who got residency and went to UVSC (ps - because she couldn’t get in to BYU). I also realize that anyone who is not LDS is not likely to want to go to BYU. But they also probably don’t want to stay in Utah Valley ( I know I don’t, and I am LDS). If they’re all as incredibly smart as you say (cream of the crop, if you will) why aren’t they going to a good, better-known college that’s out-of-state? Or if they prefer to stay in Utah, why don’t they go to U of U? Some of them probably want to stay close to home, but I’ll bet a lot of them are there because their grades aren’t high enough for a more prestigious school. Please note, I did not say all of them.
I also know that some people want to avoid the restrictive standards and LDS influence of BYU. I also have several friends who got a GREAT education at UVSC, two in nursing (which is hear is an amazing program at UVSC - that’s why they chose that school) and one in education. Here’s the thing - none of those 3 friends are planning to leave Utah. If they did, and they applied for the same position as someone from BYU, and they were exactly qualified in every way, the BYU grad would get it. That’s all I’m saying - I didn’t say the education was bad at UVSC, I have friends there who got amazing educations. But (and please note, this was the point of my last post as well), a BYU diploma will open MORE doors than a UVSC diploma. That doesn’t mean you can’t get jobs with a UVSC diploma. It just means you won’t have the same wide variety of opportunities.
Please don’t assume that my statement means that I have no idea what I’m talking about. I looked at both schools myself when graduating from high school. I also have friends and family at both schools. And also don’t assume that I think only LDS people are smart. I’ve lived ALL OVER THE WORLD and most of my life I was the only LDS person at my school. And I was never the smartest, my grades were good but I was hardly valedictorian material. The kind of people who think being LDS means you’re better than everyone else make me sick, and I resent being lumped with them, even by mild implication. And I still stand by everything I said. UVSC may have good students and cultural diversity, but not to the same extent that BYU does. And it certainly doesn’t have the same recognition. But I’m glad you’re getting a good education.
December 25th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
As a former computer science student at BYU, I have to acknowledge that UVSC’s program was better. You leave with practical knowledge from UVSC; BYU was teaching me plenty of theory, but companies don’t ask you THEORIZE how to build a system.
Funny, but my graduate committee cited BYU’s theoretical background as reason #1 why it has a stellar reputation.
Then again, my graduate committee didn’t want graduate students who had practical knowledge in what was already done, but the theoretical knowledge needed to build a new system.
At my current employer, we’re building new systems every week, if not daily. And not cookie-cutter. We’re writing code. We’re analyzing things.
But go ahead, take a BYU graduate and a UVSC graduate (with similar grades and relevant outside experience) and stack them up against each other in front of 50 employers and graduate schools. If you get more than 5 who prefer the UVSC grad, I’d be shocked!
March 10th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Hey, starting in July those of us lucky enough to have gotten into the “High School on the Highway” will now be officially a University!!!! So there all you BYU snobs….with your Wilkenson centers & BYU Sparkle & math programs that you can actually pass!!! We just might get a good football team too…..but I graduate this year, so I’m not holding my breath any…..
(yes, I know this is probably a dead topic, but like all other UVSC students, I have to put my own inconsequential opinion in as well!)